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When people use the term snowflake unironically, just remember they're quoting Fight Club, a satire written by a gay man about how male fragility causes men to destroy themselves, resent society and become radicalized. and that Tyler Durden isnt the hero but a personification of the main character's deep insecurities, and that his snowflake speech is a dig at how fascists use dehumanizing language to breed loyalty from insecure people.

@jacethechicken you are a very good chicken. did you know that?

Fight Club - apologies if I posted this before 

@jacethechicken
Where Fight Club the book and movie both fail is that they make Tyler Durden ( Brad Pitt's character ) so damn charismatic that most men that encounter Fight Club miss the point.

It embarrasses me to admit it took a few years for me to realize the message is "fascism is evil" and not "Tyler Durden is my idol".

Fight Club - apologies if I posted this before 

@mike @jacethechicken (actually, it's literally the point, to show how fascist movements need charismatic leaders to confuse young and suggestible new followers)

Fight Club - apologies if I posted this before 

@VioB @jacethechicken

If you walk out of the film thinking you want to emulate the fascist leader instead of understanding why he's the villain of the story, then I think the point was conveyed poorly.

Fight Club - apologies if I posted this before 

@mike @jacethechicken Well, from my point of view there aren't any ambiguity about the movie's intention, so I never considered it to miss its goal.

Now, I think it may be interesting to try to understand why the audience CHOSE to misunderstanded it, because I do not think it's *that* cryptic.

Fight Club - apologies if I posted this before 

@VioB @jacethechicken

I think the appeal, just like for a real cult leader, is partly the leader's charisma but also a recognition that your previous life was horrific. That's the enticement.

The movie doesn't address that. At the end the narrator has a bloody cheek, no money, no home. A turn away from fascism but not toward anything.

Is that the theme? "Your life will be soulless and pointless, just don't make it worse by being a fascist."?

Fight Club - apologies if I posted this before 

@mike @jacethechicken Yeap, I think that's exactly that. The movie doesn't try to explain how you are supposed to rule your own life. It just says "Fascism is evil, and that's the way it works".

After all, it's a movie about how seductive ideologies bring people to deny any kind of personal thought; it would be an absolute misinterpretation if it'd tell the viewer on what it should believe in.

Fight Club - apologies if I posted this before 

@mike @jacethechicken Wow! I thought the fascism in Fight Club was obvious. But then again, as German you are kinda tuned to this...

Fight Club - apologies if I posted this before 

@carl @jacethechicken

I don't know if you saw my other response. Upon further reflection I think the fascism is obvious, but the problem is that the narrator's earlier life was so bad that fascism looks like an improvement.

And even at the end, he stops Tyler but has nothing. Is he going to end up in another soul-sucking, pointless job with another petty tyrant boss and no passions again?

So I think the theme gets muddied.

Fight Club - apologies if I posted this before 

@mike @jacethechicken Never thought of the motivation "fascism looks like an improvement to my shitty life" before. That would explain some more things about the current fascism in East Germany.

Fight Club - apologies if I posted this before 

@carl @jacethechicken

I am absolutely not excusing fascism. I'm just trying to piece together why so many people, including me, missed the message. I think you nailed it.

Or to put it differently, Fight Club presents only two options, a soulless, despairing life or fascism.

It doesn't need rainbows and unicorns, but the narrator should have found something else at the end.

@jacethechicken They may also consider themselves to be "redpilled", which, oh boy.

At least they don't have their own culture?

@jacethechicken What wowed me about that movie is, that it somehow got x-rated. There are MANY much more violent movies out there freely available! Guess the fragile white men are afraid of the movie's antimasculinist and antifascist message.

@jacethechicken
I always found it amusing that both American Psycho and Fight Club were both obviously intensely queer texts and they basically defined hypermasculine archetypes in the 90s.

@Irick @jacethechicken well hypermasculinity and queerness have always been kinda close to each other : think about wrestling for example 😉 or bikers.

@Oz @jacethechicken
I think maybe its because from a queer perspective the performance of masculinity can be appreciated /as/ performance. So there is a far more salient theory of masculinity in a queer lens then from a lens of heteronormative maleness because it lacks the conscious awareness of its theory. It is a topic unexamined... Though now I wonder if this continues to be the case in a homonormitive context...

@jacethechicken narcissism is an aspect of this too. the protagonist sees himself as the main character in his own movie (...) and insists the film be one that gives him the kind of role he feels he deserves, and all his actions and interactions are to this end throughout. the narrative structure of the movie we see parallels the narrative structure of the one he constructs for himself. he needs a villain, so he invents one; a love interest, so he finds one, etc.

@jacethechicken that's why he has such a problem with her seeing him at the support groups: it interferes with how he goes there to see himself.

this narcissism plays easily into fascism as well, because its ability to construct a compelling manichaean narrative, and its encouragement for adherents and would-be adherents to do so within its precepts, makes it perhaps uniquely useful among ideological genera to fulfill the narcissist's need for story as a means of contextualizing the self.

@jacethechicken not that we don't all use stories to contextualize ourselves, of course, but for a narcissist the story one constructs for oneself doesn't suffice; they require others to see them as they see themselves, even - especially - when their words and actions tell a very different story of them. "who are you going to believe, me or your own lying eyes?"

this is why narcissists are such toxic and dangerous people - why they make such good abusers, and such good fascists too.

violence, fascism, narcissism 

@jacethechicken after all, violence is an effective tool for forcing the people around one to at least convincingly pretend they see one as one demands to be seen. but the individual abuser can only do so much, whereas fascism, as an ideological genus which enshrines redemptive violence as a tool for forcing its story on *everyone*, offers much broader scope, and that has an appeal of its own for those who seek to do so already.

@alexis @jacethechicken

this actually plays well into the theory that Marla isn't real either but a fragment of the MC's self

@solder_on @jacethechicken that would check out! i haven't seen the movie in a minute but we never see her interact with anyone beyond the protagonist or durden, do we?

@solder_on @jacethechicken that said, we'd argue very strongly against the idea that "a fragment of the MC's self" equals "not real". or, at least, if that's true then no one's "self" is "real", except inasmuch as they affect the reality we all to some greater or lesser extent share. that, we can get behind, but the idea that there exists some platonically indivisible "real self" of which some aspects exist and others are mere delusion, needs many questions answered to become at all plausible

@alexis @jacethechicken

was more angling that she is part of a fragmented whole, the narrator's psyche

(trust that I'm aware fragments are very, very real)

plurality, uncomfortable thoughts 

@solder_on @jacethechicken yeah, for sure!

this resonates for us in a personal way, tbh. we created one another out of the person who was here before, because he was in a place where no one did love him, or would, and if we didn't do something about that we were going to die. we invented ourselves to help each other make ourself whole, and we did and do just that

the protag of the movie, though...

plurality, uncomfortable thoughts 

@solder_on @jacethechicken it feels like he did similar, but just to reify his story, and even crushed that of himself that saw himself truly into a cipher that'd first validate his obsessions and then motivate his redemption arc

it's a frankly hideous act of self-directed violence, and the simultaneous keen introspection and total lack of insight or empathy that would require may be the most frightening thing in a film that's implicitly quite horrifying already

@solder_on @jacethechicken ...which also checks out for a narcissist, really. manipulation requires understanding how people work well enough to know what levers to pull, but if a person like that ever really sees what they've made of themself without having a story - a lie - to filter it through, they won't be able to exist as what they are any longer, and will have to change in some way - won't be able to *not*.

re: plurality, uncomfortable thoughts 

@alexis @jacethechicken

I found it pretty relatable myself TBQH, and like, yeah. ditto, as unimaginative as that response is

(more explanation isn't a thing I can do yet, I guess)

re: plurality, uncomfortable thoughts 

@solder_on @jacethechicken none is required! our willingness to speak about ourselves and our relationship imposes no obligation on anyone else to do likewise.

re: plurality, uncomfortable thoughts 

@alexis @jacethechicken

appreciated ❤️ truly

re: plurality, uncomfortable thoughts 

@solder_on @jacethechicken tbh we wonder if there's enough of something novel to say here, in the relationship of this film and plurality, to merit an essay...

re: plurality, uncomfortable thoughts 

@alexis @jacethechicken

seems possibly plausible to me

@alexis @jacethechicken

also the support groups argument line. "You can't have the WHOLE BRAIN!"

@alexis @jacethechicken

mmmhm. I kicked myself for missing that every damn time I saw it

@jacethechicken i don't think that was written as a satire. The mindset, however is stupid.

Infact did see a youtube video arguing(with facts) that it's origin might be quite dark. Derp, can't find it back. (Also i am not 100% sure if it convinced me?)

@jasper not a satire in the "haha comedy" sense, but in the sense that it is portraying something in an exaggerated way with the intent of criticizing / riddiculing that thing. Fight Club was deffo written to critique fragile hypermasculinity, not make it look good.

@jacethechicken
So… you speak about "male fragility" and dehumanising language in the same breath?

@Hyolobrika do you,, know what dehumanizing means? calling someone Toxically Masculine doesn't make them not human -- it's an observation of a trait many men posess, and something lots of people need to improve on. Wheras fascists use language that colors The Other as literally less than human, because fascism exists to raise up an arbitrarily-defined in-group by pushing out everyone else, and by convincing the in-group that they deserve to be on top, they deserve as much as they can get

@Hyolobrika many cis men's concept of masculinity is bad for their own mental health, and very easily challenged by perceived outside threats. That's all Toxic/Fragile Masculinity means. It's not dehumanizing, it's just what happens when the cis men in your society aren't really taught to cope with their feelings or understand their gender expression, because Feelings Are For Girls -- and that can happen unnoticed by the parents raising him, based on subtle things like media representation

@jacethechicken
By the same token, calling someone a "snowflake" doesn't make them less human either.

@jacethechicken
You are being very literal. What do you think of calling someone a "pillar of salt" for example?

@Hyolobrika I mean if you derogitorily called all your political enemies Pillars Of Salt, I'd be confused at what you meant but I wouldn't endorse it.

I feel like you're being intentionally obtuse and pretending to not understand how the word "snowflake" is used in bad faith. Or perhaps you've just never seen someone write off anyone whose existence challenges their bigoted ideas with the word "snowflake?"

@jacethechicken
No. You're the one being obtuse. I understand perfectly well that many people use the word "snowflake" in a derogatory way, but you seem unable (or perhaps unwilling) to understand that "male fragility" can be just as derogatory, whether or or not its meant that way (and I would argue that it was in your case, whether you wanted that to be clearly visible or not).

@jacethechicken
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lot%27s_
Ah. It seems that phrase does not mean what I thought it meant.
I thought "a real pillar of salt" meant someone who was loyal. Not sure where I got that idea from.

At any rate, I am sure that there are instances of phrases receding to people that literally refer to things that aren't derogatory. I was even aggressively told that when on r/tumblr I pointed out when someone referred to a man as "beef".

@Hyolobrika would you then argue that it is in Fight Club's case? because all I was doing was recounting the direct textual arguments made by the movie Fight Club -- wherein the protagonist is downtrodden and emotionally immature, and makes a hypermasculine alter ego which can say the things he can't and beat the shit out of people, and who has turned thousands of similarly vulnerable men into a terrorist militia -- which is easy to understand if you're not a toxic ass who identifies with Tyler.

@Hyolobrika the movie's one flaw in comparison to the book is making Tyler too charismatic, such that MRAs and sexists across the globe could easily identify with Tyler. but the book makes it extremely clear that Tyler -- and in general becoming toxically hypermasculine and violent in response to a world you don't feel comfortable in -- is the problem.

@jacethechicken
I don't need to have watched it to know that what you said was problematic, idiot. The discussion was about your use of the term "fragile masculinity", not Fight Club.

@Hyolobrika but... my usage of Fragile Masculinity is inherently tied to the film fight club! If you don't know fight club, you don't know the context of what I'm saying -- and without context, words are meaningless, language is inherently contextual. So instead you have built a simulacrum of what you *think* my words mean, and you're arguing with that instead.

@jacethechicken
Some meaning stays constant across contexts. Otherwise how can we know what it means in each context?

@Hyolobrika look my dude, linguistics says that words are meaningless in a vacuum, and only with context do their meanings take form. There's no descriptive agency in English to say what words 'should' mean, all dictionaries are descriptive.

You must know the context in which people are talking, or you have literally no authority to talk on the subject. I even *told* you what the term means in context in my first reply, and you still argue with a meaning of the word you built for yourself.

@jacethechicken counterpoint: fascists are generally the real snowflakes :^)

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